User talk:Morwen

Archived talk: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14 15. 16. Current talk: User_talk:Morwen

District splits

I have produced a list of districts that don't have separate articles to their namesake settlement at User:Crouch, Swale/District split. Of those York, Peterborough, Sheffield, Warrington and Corby should probably be split and Newcastle upon Tyne, Redditch and Chesterfield maybe should be split. Of the changes since you're splits in 2004 the changes seem to be Darlington, Hartlepool, Havant and Preston have been split, Sheffield, Peterborough and York (split in 2002) have been merged and Bournemouth, Ipswich, Middlesbrough, Poole, Reading and Tamworth were once split but were merged. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi thanks, that's interesting trip through memory lane! As I recall back then I was seen as quite a bit of a splitter - I was trying to mostly apply some sort of general principles country-wide, to do with the size of settlements not part of the main BUA in the district. Most editors from various localities never really saw the big picture. Corby was one of those one that was right on the edge where I think I reckoned it should be split but it was clear that would be unable to achieve a consensus. I do remember blank incomprehension from people particularly for calling the split articles 'City of X' vs 'X' for the ones that had city status. Perhaps that was a mistake and I should have just gone with X (district). My "but that's the actual name! that's how council uses it, and it's the legal name! you just don't apparently know what things are called" argument never really worked. Oh god now I'm getting flashbacks to the chap who imagined an entire county borough that never existed and refused to accept my documentation that it didn't on the basis that I was too young. Anyway, not as contentious as counties (although that seems to have settled down now, at least). Morwen (talk) 12:01, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I very much doubt that Corby would ever have been controversial if split, the only controversy seems to have been with splits of districts with city status mainly due to the confusion with the title. In addition as noted Corby district is due to be abolished in April next year and the unparished area parished so the borough would be a former entity anyway. The only proposal to merge a district without city status that I'm aware of is Barrow-in-Furness (see Talk:Barrow-in-Furness#Merge) failed in 2008/9. In 2012 most of the districts were moved from "X (district)" and X (borough)" to "X District" and "Borough of X" in 2012 see Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about districts#Naming conventions (so an article for Corby district would be at Borough of Corby just like Borough of Kettering). I think the tests for having single articles there are too lax, namely I think that if the district does have recent boundaries like Cheltenham but the ONS BUA/BUASD is similar shouldn't be split as well as cases like Ipswich where the BUA/BUASD is larger than the district aren't split. The only ones that have pre 1974 boundaries that are split are Havant and Fareham, I think Havant is somewhat an exception anyway since the district contains distinct places (such as Hayling Island) and the older district was actually called "Havant and Waterloo" anyway. Fareham could maybe be merged. Note that I have created Category:Unparished areas but not all are included due to some nakesake districts being partly parished but having only 1 article. Out of the "Partly parished" section on my list which ones would you recommend/consider splitting? Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I mean, I may well have misjudged that. I never really liked 'X District' as a solution because nobody ever really uses it as a name independently - certainly not with the capital letter. It's only ever found as part of the phrase 'X District Council', and in that case it's the 'District Council' of 'X', not the 'Council' of 'X District'. But also 15 years later maybe I've matured enough to just let go of it. Or at least pretend to.

I'm not really sure my opinion matters very much just because I happened to do this work originally. BUT having said that, of you partly parished list

• Birmingham, Manchester, Middlesbrough, Coventry - keep merged - just cans of worms if you do these. Manchester in particular get used as a name for a much larger urban area than the 'locality'. We also do already have Greater Manchester Built-Up Area, Manchester City Centre, Greater Manchester; there's a point where splitting just adds confusion rather than clears things up
• Chesterfield - probably split, on account of Staveley.
• Corby, Redditch - i think are marginal splits
• Cheltenham, Gloucester, Oxford, Slough, Southend, Worcester - the boundaries are fairly tight with the urban area, keep merged.
• Newcastle upon Tyne, I think the unwieldiness of the name for a split article makes me want that to keep merged.
• Peterborough - definitely agree with splitting this. Over half the land area is outside of the settlement.
• Sheffield - definitely split.
• Warrington - yeah probably split
• York - split yeah

so i think ultimately i don't disagree with any of your assessments there although maybe I wouldn't bother to do the marginal ones if there was any local pushback. Morwen (talk) 13:43, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

"X District" is used as an alternative label by the OS and Vision of Britain and GeoNames use "X District" (though that is a Wiki) and "Borough of X" is (or as least was) used by the OS for boroughs with unitary status.

I'd agree with you're opinions but I'd make 2 small changes, I'd flip Chesterfield round since although Staveley is a town and parish and was former an urban district it is part of Chesterfield BUA even though its not part of the BUASD. The question can be asked if we define a settlement by the BUA or BUASD? The 2nd question at Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about districts#Naming conventions saying about distinct settlements in a district is interesting here, with Corby (apart from Weldon) the villages in the parished part are unquestionably standalone settlements while with Chesterfield the other town isn't unquestionably stand alone, which do you give more weigh to? IMO the former. Note at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of localities in England by population (an article you created) this appears to be being debated, (I can notify you since its standard to notify the author without being classified as canvasing).

With Newcastle upon Tyne I'd actually consider keeping as is for partly the same reasons as Manchester etc you gave above in that many will consider it to be the whole Tyneside BUA but what do you mean by unwieldiness of the name? Are you talking about the fact that the district is called "Newcastle upon Tyne" while its council is merely "Newcastle City Council" similar to Hull City Council/Kingston upon Hull? I'm not sure how this would be problematic other than the fact that the council has a shorter name than what we'd give the district namely City of Newcastle upon Tyne, this was also debated at Talk:City of Newcastle#Requested move 13 July 2020. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:25, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure "X District" usage do occur in databases, wikis and procedurally generated content but like, take the principle of WP:NAME as it should be the common name as used in actual English prose about it.

The BUAs are interesting but ultimately as i understand it, a strip development on a main road between two otherwise independent settlements would be enough to merge the BUAs for statistical purposes but doesn't really necessarily affect how people think about on the ground? Hilariously, I think I would actually vote against that list - I'm surprised to find out I made it!, but I do remember being turned against it pretty quickly when I realised it was a choice between synthesis and the BUASDs; and I /really/ didn't like the BUASDs being ranked in a sort of national list, because they didn't seem to be designed for that, and the ONS wasn't presenting them like that. Yeah I just mean that like City of Newcastle upon Tyne is a long name. Mind you it would be far from our longest.

Ultimately I'm not really editing on the ground in this area, though and both what the principles should be and the application of them are are judgement calls and I'm happy to sit those out. Morwen (talk) 09:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

OK, I've produced some tables at User:Crouch, Swale/District split#Tables, as you can see Chesterfield fails the 1st 3 (as long as you go by BUA and not BUASD) while Corby passes every test. Its also interesting to note that of the 3 that have pre 1974 boundaries all of them are in Hampshire (unless you take into account Basildon which apparently got part of Thurrock Urban District and is now partly parished) but as noted Havant is maybe already an exception due to the former district being "Havant and Waterloo". Interestingly Exeter just like Chesterfield could (but I probably wouldn't recommend) arguably be split for the same reason (aside from being unparished and pre 1974) Topsham is part of Exeter BUA but not BUASD. @MRSC: what do you make of those? you produced the tables in 2009 for WP:UKDISTRICTS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I've created Draft:Borough of Corby, on the flip side how many of those at User:Crouch, Swale/District split#Others that have pre 1974 boundaries would you suggest merging? As far as they go Basildon probably should be kept split since Billericay is clearly a separate town (and the former district was called "Billericay" previously) as well as the fact that it seems part of Thurrock Urban District became part of Basildon in 1974? Harrow should probably also stay split since it seems that many of the other places (like Stanmore) would still be thought of as being distinct and every other London borough is split. Havant might already be an exception since as noted the old district was "Havant and Waterloo" and anyway Hayling Island is clearly distinct. Fareham clearly contains some distinct areas so its marginal. Woking (which I previously missed from the list of post 2005 splits) perhaps should be merged, its an interesting one in that Byfleet may be classified as being distinct in that its not part of the BUASD and was from 1989 to 2010 a parish. The discussion for splitting is at Talk:Woking#Borough v. town and Guildford was used as a precedent for the split again as you have noted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive/WikiProject UK subdivisions#Splits where borough is smaller than urban area (and other places) its a false equivalence. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Middlesbrough has now been split again and there is yet another discussion on merging it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#Article for both Borough and town?. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:10, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

And Chesterfield has also been split. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

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With districts that didn't have boundary changes in 1974 (or only had trivial ones, see User:Crouch, Swale/Reconstituted districts) you pointed out years ago at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive/WikiProject UK subdivisions#Splits where borough is smaller than urban area about problems with scope and links etc with splitting Reading etc. If the boundaries didn't change in 1974 then yes I'd have the district since the older district was formed of which for Reading it is 1835 (it became a county borough in 1888) and links to the older district would point to Municipal Borough of Reading and County Borough of Reading, both of which would redirect to Borough of Reading. So yes county borough would link as [[County Borough of Reading|Reading]]. Take a look at Bury, Greater Manchester/County Borough of Bury/Metropolitan Borough of Bury for example where there is an article about the settlement, older district and modern one. At Template:London Government Act 1963 all the older districts have article (as well as the settlements) with 1 exception Harrow because the boundaries didn't change in which case it redirects to the current one, see Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about districts#Reconstituted districts. I'd be neutral on if we split the likes of Reading but yes if split it should deal with the district all time rather than just post 1974. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi. I don't have any particularly strong need to express any feelings in this area that I was involved in editing over fifteen years ago now. Morwen (talk) 10:04, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

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Hi, Andrew. Unfortunately I'm busy tomorrow afternoon. :( Maybe I'll try and come to a 20th anniversary one in the summer? Morwen (talk) 14:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Hi, thanks for your message. When I created the page, twenty-one years ago, I did so as a disambiguation. Perhaps your concerns about its content could be resolved merely by restoring the page to disambiguation? Morwen (talk) 03:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

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